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GZA Interview by Ben Klebba |
You want me to interview the GZA? The GZA? For real? Wow. What do I say? What do I ask him? The GZA! Do you understand? As Method Man once so eloquently put on 36 Chambers – “We form like Voltron, and the GZA happen to be the head.” Never have I sounded like such a white nerdy Wu Tang fan than when I listened back to our phone conversation… He talked about a lot – the genesis of Wu, his new album, his “Liquid Swords” tour, why he lyrically murdered a certain whack rapper, respect, creativity, and why money doesn’t really matter. “When the MCs came, to live out the name, and to perform…”
Wide-Eyed: I’m gonna go back to the beginning… What got you rhyming in the first place? What was your inspiration? Where’d you start at?
GZA: Quite a few things. (pause) Just the flow of words. Just hearing one talk slick. I used to listen to the Last Poets when I was younger and that was a part of it. I also used to read a lot of nursery rhymes when I was younger and I knew a lot of ‘em word for word. By the time I was startin’ to get into hip hop, I kinda already had that cadence and delivery. It goes way back.
WE: I know you started in a group with the RZA and Ol Dirty way way way back called All In Together Now, and then you were on Cold Chillin for a minute, RZA had a thing on Tommy Boy – was Wu Tang a reaction against that stuff? How did Wu begin?
GZA: Wu began around the time of Cold Chillin and Tommy Boy – actually Wu Tang was supposed to come out on Tommy Boy – but it was just the RZA – I don’t know who he was gonna have with him. We were just coming off the Cold Chillin thing/Tommy Boy thing, and things weren’t goin’ well with myself and Cold Chillin – I wasn’t feelin’ ‘em at the time, I thought they didn’t promote my album well. I was ready to leave after the first album, I didn’t want to record anything, it was kinda a messed up moment. And RZA was on Tommy Boy, he was going to do something and they didn’t support him and I think they may have been ready to drop him at the time or I don’t know if he just left also. But I had left Cold Chillin and I was tryin’ to do demos and get songs and RZA had this idea about Wu Tang. And Method Man, and Raekwon and them – a lot of us were childhood friends from way back. And they were in Staten Island comin’ up – at the time they had just started rhyming – and they were good – and I guess at some point RZA decided to put Wu Tang Clan together. And we got myself and Dirty – we’re in Brooklyn, Masta Killah is in Brooklyn – and the rest of the Clan was in Staten Island. We booked studio time, and we all went in there and we did “Protect Ya Neck”. That’s how it came about. And then, he said he had a 5-year plan after that and we all started getting deals and stuff… The rest is history.
WE: 36 Chambers really changed everything. It’s 15 years old now and it still sounds incredibly fresh and relevant. I grew up in a tiny town in Michigan and it hit kids out there – How did it feel for you guys to have such a huge impact on hip hop as we know it at that time?
GZA: It felt great. We still have that.
WE: Definitely.
GZA: Then and now. Nothing’s changed. See, what it is with a lot of people. You know you’re not seen on TV and you’re not on radio, then people just don’t know. We just got back from Europe. Saw 20 to 30,000 people pullin’ out W’s when we walked on stage. So it’s a great feelin’.
WE: Your new tour is called “Liquid Swords” -- and that album is one of the best Wu albums ever, if not the best in some heads, mine included.
GZA: Thank you.
WE: Yeah, seriously. It’s surreal how good that album is. So, I’m wonderin’ how that all came together. Not that I discount the amazing power of your lyrical skills, but I sometimes wonder if the RZA reserved certain beats for you.
GZA: No, I don’t think so… because at one point I felt some of Raekwon’s beats I wanted. So I don’t think it was a conscious effort for him. I just think it was a time when he had a lot goodies in a basket and Rae may have came through and took a handful, and then I came through and grabbed a handful, then Ghost came through. I don’t think RZA actually went in the basket and said, “Don’t take this. This is GZA’s” or “leave this alone. This is Raekwon’s”. I don’t think it went like that. He had a LOT of goodies back then.
WE: What was going through your mind when Liquid Swords came out?
GZA: Everything. Everything was happening so fast. It was just so quick. Because we did “Protect Ya Neck” in ‘92. This is just following Cold Chillin – that time period was a long time of stressing and depression and a lot of downs, but it really didn’t last that long — cuz I put out the Cold Chillin album was in ‘91, but that whole year seemed like 3 years of downs – Downville. Then in ‘92 we did “Protect Ya Neck”, then in ‘93 we were doin’ shows as Wu Tang and on the road and then ‘94 we were all getting solo deals and ‘95 I put out Liquid Swords, and ‘95/‘96 five of us had albums on the charts – all gold or platinum. So, it was all happening. It was just – {pause} — I don’t know what I was thinking at the time, but it was good. It was a blessing. Good things were happenin’. I was grateful and I still am. I look at it like this – I’m goin’ on a Liquid Swords tour. That album is 13 years old. AND, I’m performin’ to young’ns — 15 or 16 year olds in the audience singin’ the lyrics! The young’ns. Ya understand? Who has 2 generations of fans like that? How many groups? How many solo artists? I mean, I run into people that say “My moms raised me on Wu Tang.”
WE: {laughter} You guys got the stamina. It’s a timeless sound.
GZA: It’s a good thing.
WE: How’d the “Grandmasters” thing happen with Muggs?
GZA: Muggs always wanted to do an album together ever since we worked on the “Soul Assassins” project. We talked about it every time we hooked up, and one time he was in the city, and I went by his hotel, he played some beats, I picked about 12 or 13 beats, wrote to half of ‘em, linked up with him a year later, and then recorded the album in 7 days.
WE: That’s quick.
GZA: This “Pro Tools” album we did in 3 days.
WE: 3!?
GZA: It took me 3 years to give them the album {laughter}. I was doin’ songs over the years, but then I was getting rid of ‘em, because originally contractually it was supposed to be a mix tape (compilation) album. So in the long run, they ended up getting a GZA album and they promoted it as that. So when it got down to crunch time and I was doin songs and I was supposed to put a whole bunch of people on the album – cuz boom – that’s all they were payin’ for – then I started thinking about it as the years went by and you know what, my name’s still on it – I just can’t put together anything because they just threw me mix tape money. So in the long run, we started changing structures, started changing beats, and then I got a handful of stuff, I went in and I recorded 8 or 9 songs in one day and then – a couple of songs I had to do them over and restructure them – but yeah, I knocked it out – that soon.
WE: The new album’s called Pro Tools – that’s the name of the recording industry audio software standard – what made you name it that?
GZA: Baby Grande wanted a title and normally how it works, I don’t have titles for songs until way after they’re finished – they just come naturally. He wanted a title for an album and I didn’t have one. I was thinking of titles and I had a few names and I wasn’t really feelin’ it. And at one point I don’t know, I was at the house lookin’ at the computer or something and I just said Pro Tools. {laughter} I’m callin’ it Pro Tools. Why not? The software’s the program we use to record and why not? Cool title.
WE: I know RZA’s on there – but who else handled production?
GZA: RZA, Tru Master, Black Milk, Arabian Knight, Preservation, Bronze Nazareth, Mathematics.
WE: Any lyrical guests?
GZA: It’s very limited. I like to work like that. RZA, Masta Killa’s on there, Justice my son, Roc Marcy laid a verse with me and I have another brother named Ka on there and that’s basically it as far as MCs. Tru Master’s on a hook.
WE: So we gotta talk about this “Paper Plates” track. People are gonna find this out real quick when the album drops or they already heard it on the internet, but it’s an amazing 50 Cent diss done with surgery scalpel precision. Dissect the beef for me.
GZA: There wasn’t really a beef. I don’t look at it as a beef. I don’t even look at it as a diss song. {Chuckle} I didn’t really go in on him. {Pause} It was a debt that needed to be paid. Let me see… how did this come about? I made a statement at a show one day in London. This is all on the internet already. It started in London at a place called Koko’s – I was doin’ a Liquid Swords show. So… At one point, I gave the mic to someone in the crowd. People are yellin’ out stuff, sometimes they yell out songs they wanna hear, or “ODB!” or whatever. So one guy was yellin’ out and I didn’t really hear what he said at first, so I went to give him the mic and he said “Fuck 50 Cent.” That’s what he said – you can see it, it’s on the (YouTube) clip (side note – google “GZA disses 50 cent” for a whole lot of info on this). I could’ve just left it alone, I was feelin’ nice, I was drinkin’, I’m not gonna front. I still don’t regret what I said and it’s not that liquor made me say that. I coulda said “naw, we ain’t gonna go there”, but instead I said “Yeah – you heard that 50?” I said “Did you hear that Curtis?” and whatever else I said after that. He made a lot of money, he made a lot of dough, but lyrically he really don’t got shit. And I even said in the clip at a certain point “Look nigga, we on You Tube.” What is that sayin’? That I know there’s a thousand cell phones filmin’. What was I tryin’ to hide? Less than 24 hours, it had 8000 hits. (the YouTube clip) I was reading comments that said “He wouldn’t say that in New York.” But I’m sayin’ look – we on You Tube, so did it make a difference where I said it? I coulda been on the moon, right?
WE: Now and forever – it’s out there.
GZA: You got it. So, I gave the mic to someone else and he said “Fuck Soulja Boy.” Now, I didn’t disrespect Soulja Boy. 50 tried to flip it around. I just said “You hear that Soulja Boy?” I said “You got a hot ringtone” or whatever. When I think of young MCs – Special Ed, when he was 16 he was sayin’ something. So compared to Special Ed, you ain’t shit, cuz he was lyrical. Or LL at 16 – he was a terror. G Rap at 17 was a terror – lyrically – there wasn’t even 20 year olds that could fuck with him. 3 days later, I’m in New York now at the Knitting Factory and I said “Let me clear something up.” People are screamin’ “Fuck 50 Cent.” I was in London, ya’ll saw some shit, whatever, I’m not gonna bite my tongue, and I’m not drinkin’ tonight – I said 50 don’t got lyrics. Point blank. I’m in New York now. The next day it was on MTV.com on the main page. They blew that up. Then a few weeks later 50 made a statement. He said he was disappointed in Wu Tang and he Googled me and he said the year I was born in like it was a big secret. My age has never been a secret. He said “Oh I got a Chevy Impala from 66.” Then he starts sayin’ I was at war with Soulja Boy. He flipped it all around. It was never like that. That was the type of shit 50 was sayin’. Another corny little thing he said when he was talking about me he said “What is he a scientist?” or something like that – he was clownin’ me {laughter} he said “I bomb atomically”, right? Well, I DO bomb atomically ‘cuz everything is composed of atoms – that’s something we all know though. From one atom came the whole universe. We DO bomb atomically. BUT, the funny thing is, that’s not even my verse! That’s (Inspectah) Deck’s verse. So, what is he talking about?! But that’s all he said. He didn’t really come at me. I wrote this verse after I heard that. I wrote it and I was like, you know I don’t need this, if he say something, I’m gonna blast at ‘im. Cuz he really didn’t say anything to get under my skin – he didn’t really say anything. So I knew already he didn’t really want to go there. I just had it and I was holdin’ it. I let people in my camp hear it and they was like “Hell no, man, you gotta let that off.” And then when I recorded it I was just playin’ around – I was just reading… I was in my slippers and my boxers. Laid back and relaxed – you can hear it on the song.
WE: You sound very calm. {laughter}
GZA: Reading off a paper. I normally don’t read anything. I recorded it, it sounded good, and boom, we used it, the people at Baby Grande heard it and they wanted to leak it. That’s how that came about. No big deal.
WE: Not that I’d worry, but do you expect any attempt at a rebuttal?
GZA: He may. It wouldn’t surprise me, but I just know – lyrically… artistically… creatively… What can he say or do?
WE: Nothing.
GZA: What can he do, but talk about money? I don’t rhyme about money. I never did. A lot of MCs as soon as they get a car they put it in their rhymes. And I’ve never done that. I’m pretty sure I had rims before he did. But I’m not a material person. So, you’re not winning by doing that. You speaking about your money is not hurting me. There’s nothing wrong with being rich – that’s a beautiful thing. You can’t knock that. The more the merrier – so be it. But you can’t go at me, really. What’s really gonna hold weight? My flow is incredible. My wordplay run the 400 meter relay. It’s on, watch me grab the baton from my DJ. You know? {Laughter} What? What can you do? It’s pathetic. Just imagine him tryin’ to sit down and write. That’s why I said “You can get your best ghostwriters. Get them all to testify.” And I’m just one out the Clan. How you gonna come at me? So, I expect him to talk money. That’s it. It don’t hold any weight here. Privately I fly commercial. A good act, with enough rehearsals. It doesn’t matter. We still both use pilots.
WE: {Laughter}
GZA: It doesn’t matter. If I’m in a king size bed and your bed is ten times what a king size bed is with a thousand pillows –
WE: You’re still sleepin’.
GZA: That’s it! You still rest how I rest. I’m still comfortable. It doesn’t faze me. It never did. That’s my only point and I wanted to let that off. ‘Cuz we got fans that struggle, and I always look at myself as a person like my fans. Not above, not below. Eye to eye. I respect them ‘cuz they respect me to help me be who I am by spreadin’ the word and sharing my music. I read something years ago and I forget where, but it goes “We make a living, but we make a life by what we give.” So of course you’re makin’ a livin’, but what are you givin’ back? So if you’re runnin’ around, at first you got music on this level, then once you getting paid a lot of money, it starts makin’ stars callin’ people window shoppers – “You’re a window shopper – you’re lookin’ at me. I got stuff you can’t buy.” – What kinda shit is that?! Is that right? You know what I’m sayin’? My children was raised havin’ good things, ‘cuz I was fortunate enough to make a livin’ doin’ hip hop. A good livin’. But I’ve never taught them to look down on kids cuz they got $300 sneakers and other kids got on $40. Never. For what? So what? They’re both shoes. So that’s my point. How many artists get money and that’s all they can rhyme about? Money isn’t everything. Of course some of ‘em do good things with their money and good causes. But when you start lookin’ down on people when you’re goin’ up – c’mon – it’s not a good thing. I’d never be disrespectin’ people talking about they can’t buy what I got – whatever – I don’t think that’s cool.
WE: Do you feel the pendulum swings both ways? People get all obsessed about their money and rims or whatever bullshit they wanna rap about and then there’s conscious cats like you – you never aspired for the commercial excess, but you have made a good career out of it — do you think hip hop is sliding back that way again?
GZA: Yeah, what goes-around-comes-around. It’s always been that way – it’s just that the mainstream part of it now is not about that. And I can’t knock that. That’s an OK thing for those that like that. I’m not knockin’ that. If someone comes out and sells that many records and people like it, but the thing about a lot of mainstream stuff is that it doesn’t last long. It has the lifespan of a fly.
WE: The shelf life is shit.
GZA: The shelf life is not even long enough to collect dust. So there’s no longevity in there. I don’t care if you sold 10 million records on your first album, and 2 years later you only sold 4 million, and now you can’t even go platinum. That shows that a lot of these fans that like mainstream stuff, they don’t have the loyalty or even the patience to stick around with the stuff – “He’s good today, tomorrow — I don’t even like this shit. I ain’t feelin’ that. I’m into this right now.” Over and over they change it up. So much that they don’t even know what they like. You have all these things that give certain impressions — if you watch TV a lot you become consumed by a lot of TV and what’s on it.
WE: For sure.
GZA: So if you’re listening to the radio – you hear something every day – you may not even like it – “Oh it ain’t nothing lyrically, it’s not hot, but I’m hearin’ it every day” And all these people become so programmed that they don’t really know what they like. Or what’s authentic. It’s forever changing and it’s gonna be what it is ‘cuz it’s whatever’s playing and people who listen to radio are gonna like it. The majority of the world is ignorant anyway – so what do we expect will sell more records? Ignorant shit the majority of the time. Because it’s easy. It’s simple. Lyrically though, how many MCs can get on Oprah?
WE: {Laughter} I don’t know, man.
GZA: How many do you really respect? I mean, she probably don’t really know GZA lyrics, but I guarantee you if they were put on paper in front of her in a book, she’d say “This is beautiful writing.”
WE: The GZA in Oprah’s Book Club.
GZA: {laughter} If all the writers in the hip hop world had to move to a different department and “C’mon this company’s closing, all ya’ll rappers are getting transferred over to the Hollywood film department.” Shit. People be getting fired left and right. Everyday. Hardly no one would have a job, ‘cuz it would not be interesting at all.
WE: It’d be the same fucking movie over and over again.
GZA: It’s the same movie. But on radio it’s different. Radio’s playin’ the same stuff. There’s no shelf life. When I did Liquid Swords I wasn’t lookin’ at it like – and I still don’t look at it as my best work or the best that’s to come. You don’t even know what I’m writin’ now.
WE: Do you get sick of people talking about Liquid Swords?
GZA: Naw. Never.
WE: Good. You shouldn’t. It’s a certified classic.
GZA: Thank you. I appreciate it. When we talk about the shelf life thing – I’m still getting a lot of press on it and I’m going out on a Liquid Swords tour – 13 years later. They still come out to see me perform that album. They love it. It’s just a blessin’ to be able to have an album like that. I just appreciate the response and respect and everything else that comes along with it. I love it. It’s an album that’s respected by a lot of people even in the industry – intellects at that.
WE: You want quality fans.
GZA: Exactly. That’s a big difference. And that means a lot to me.
WE: So what’s next?
GZA: I’m just writin’, man. The next album’s gonna be my strongest ever. It’s just me. I’m excited to do it. You’ll love it. You’ll see – I can’t really explain.
WE: When do you think this will come out?
GZA: I’ll say next year. ‘09. It’s very much needed.
WE: What’s it about? What’s the concept?
GZA: Heaven and earth. I’ll leave it like that.
WE: Alright. Well, I got one more question – and it’s a big one – then I’ll let you go. What inspires you these days?
GZA: Everything. There’s so many things to be inspired from that it’s a downright shame that we talk about the same shit all the time. There’s so many things to be inspired from. Not only does the mind reproduce a lot of stuff that’s impressed on it, but what people seem to forget is that the mind also creates. And a lot of artists don’t really create. It’s like their imaginations are sterile. Most people write about what they see, when I write about a lot of stuff I think, and see, and feel, and hear – not just about what I see. A rapper sees a jet, he’ll write about it. He’ll see a diamond chain and he’ll write about it. But he won’t know exactly what the diamond is. Most of them don’t know how to go there. Inspiration comes from everything. It can come from water. Water’s not just wet. It’s a living thing. We wash with it, we drink it — it’s a living thing. It’s hydrogen, it’s oxygen, it has a molecular structure. It’s deeper than just water. So there’s always something that can go on and on. And in a skillful way, you can do it without bein’ boring and it can come off as gangster and hard. See – that’s what makes a great writer or a great lyricist – when you can take something and write something that has no profanity, no vulgar language, but it still sounds explicit, it still sounds hard, it still sounds like you beat ‘em on the back with a bat. It puts chills on ‘em – that’s what great writing is about. There’s so many things to get inspired from it makes no sense to talk about the same shit over and over. I’ve heard 50 or 60 songs, with artists talking about how much money is on their wrist – just like that – “I got a thousand on my wrist”, “20, 000 on my wrist”, “100,000 on my wrist.”
WE: Lazy.
GZA: I think Jay-Z was the first one who said it, and then it never stopped. Then 80 songs later – Like that makes you? I’m not knockin’ Jay Z – he’s the first person I heard say it in a slick, unique way, but that was ten years ago. And people still sayin’ it – who cares? “I got 100,000 on my pinky”, “I got 500, 000 on my neck” – what you got on your brain?! How much you got on that? As far as inspiration, I can be inspired by anything. If you really wanna compare rappers – ‘cuz it’s all a matter of opinion – “I’m better than you, you’re better than me.” You wanna compare MCs, put them on the same track, give them the same subject, then see who can deliver. If you take most MCs – you take the average rap album that talks all this material shit — if you give ‘em a subject and said “I want you to write a rhyme, a story, and I want the setting to be… in the 1700s.”
WE: {Laughter}
GZA: He will be fucked up! ‘Cuz he can’t talk about cars, he can’t talk about dollar bills, he can’t talk about Benjamins, paybacks, headrests, plasma screen TVs, big stereos, he can’t talk about buyin out the bar in the club. He’ll be fucked up. “I can’t talk about my rims or my phone? I can’t talk about my fly ass mansion?” (pause) It wouldn’t hurt me one bit. I can do that. Out of 100 MCs, only 1 speaks in his own voice. The other 99 imitate and they don’t even know they imitatin’ because of what’s been impressed on their minds. A lot of musicians, a lot of producers, they do shit other musicians and producers do because they be hearin’ what’s out there so much and then they don’t have time to really get in their own world. Mozart’s deaf, right?
WE: Yeah.
GZA: He made music like nobody. He couldn’t hear other shit after he went deaf. So all he heard was what he made. So it doesn’t make sense to bite and imitate, ‘cuz there’s so much out there. People need to stop being fascinated by the machine. They need to be fascinated by the mind that made the machine. We look at a Stealth Bomber and say, “Wow, look at the way it hovers.” We don’t say, “Who designed that? Where was their mind at? Who thought of that?” We don’t do that. That’s where artistry starts. When you put ‘em in a world, take everything from ‘em – it’s just like putting someone in the woods. How many of us know how to survive in the woods? Not many at all. Because we’re used to turning on the stove, turning on the light. So if you put us in a world where we get fire from rubbin’ sticks together, the only way we can eat is if we hunt it or pick it – it’s a whole different world that we need to learn to adapt to. That’s how MCs would be if you put ‘em in that world. And producers don’t do that anymore – they don’t take ‘em in and say, “This is the subject – write it. This is what it is. I don’t wanna hear anything about cars on this one.” Even R&B now – so much of it is like “buyin’ out the bar,” “shorty wanna be swingin’ on me” — It’s the same stuff. (pause) I grew up on music from the ‘70s – soul, Motown, real pop music, classic rock – songs that were really songs. That’s what I listen to now. When I’m in the car the radio is either on 1010 (New York’s 1010 WINS) traffic and weather or Light FM. That’s how I get down. It’s soothing. You get to reminisce, ‘cuz music is the soundtrack to your life. You hear something and it gives you a certain memory. It takes you back to a certain time.
WE: I love that about music.
GZA: It’s a beautiful thing.
